Election and Removal proposal

Re: Election and Removal proposal

Postby Kender » Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:54 am

Looksha, before I vote. There is one minor edit I would like to suggest. Please do not become irate. It does not change the proposal as it exists now; but would prevents one half of the proposal being used against the second part where it is further defined.

The section is as follows:

The five groups are recognized as Yugashi, Lookshyans, Solars, Lunars, and the remaining inhabitants of the city. Their membership requirements are as follows:


I would like to suggest that it read as follows:

The five groups are recognized as Yugashi, Lookshyans, Solars, Lunars, and the remaining 'citizens' of the city. Their membership requirements are as follows:

AS their is no time frame to define an inhabitant, but their are for citizens.

I would also like to ask you a direct question. As the main proponent for expediency with this document, I would like to ask you to answer the following question.

Loksha, As you have been rewriting this proposal over and over again; are there any loopholes or pitfalls that we as the council have overlooked? Before you answer and to clarify I am not referring to the edits Loken or I have suggested but to anything that you believe could be exploitable by any group of people currently in office or who may come after us.

(I will spend 8 motes personal to Motive Dissecting Eye and 1st excellency to Perception to review his answer)
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Re: Election and Removal proposal

Postby The Redneck » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:43 am

*Loksha nods.*

That change is amenable. If the other counselors still vote in favor?

As for your direct question, I would like to make two notes.

The first is to ask just where you get the authority to imply that I left loopholes in this proposal. It was the very possibility of loopholes that caused us to struggle with Loken for months even though--he claimed, at least--we could avoid the entire issue by simply voting his proposal into effect. Is this question for anyone else, or is this another in the long series of false accusations you have hurled at me?

The second is that no, I see only two pifalls--one, of course, is the addition that a counselor must scramble during his or her first month to review and approve decisions made earlier--and since that is one of the thirteen issues which Loken has insisted upon since his constituents made it clear he does not represent them, we have little choice in that issue but to fix it next month when he's gone. The second is that this proposal will deliberately allow the placement of Counselors who are actively committing treason against the city and Creation itself by giving aid and support to its enemies. Does that answer your question?

*Motive-Dissecting Eye will fine that Loksha is honestly angry and frustrated, and that he doesn't seem to be hiding anything--except for the fact that he's starting to suspect Loken and Fires are working together to stall this bill.*
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Re: Election and Removal proposal

Postby Mirage » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:58 am

"I agree with the current form of the proposal, including the minor change."
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Re: Election and Removal proposal

Postby admin » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:43 pm

Finds the minor change acceptable as well. Voting yes..
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Re: Election and Removal proposal

Postby Kender » Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:30 pm

My authority comes from the same place your authority comes from Loksha. I am also getting very tired of you of turning everything into an attack against yourself. No matter what anyone has asked, or questioned if it doesn't agree with your world view, instead of being diplomatic, you become verbally frustrated. We all have as well.

You scoff, you snort, you insult. These tend to be the actions of a person trying to deflect people's attentions away from what's important. They are also actions in of themselves that have created as many of the delays that you accuse us of creating.

In the end, it is a simple question of verification. As the writer, and not the one actually nitpicking what is already written, you may have seen something that you felt may have been odd but didn't feel like it warranted a direct review.

Especially as you feel that we have been purposefully stalling the issue.

I am asking you your own opinion; sure you wrote it, but I know you want this to be over so the Solars can proceed with their business. So sometimes the matter of expediency can outweigh the matter of thoroughness.

I rather we be thorough and not vote on something that will need to be rewritten in 10 days or 100 years from now.

The first part I do not see as that great of a detriment. It simply allows a new councilor a time to question any new laws passed when the council isn't formed. It allows them a chance to let their voice be heard, to influence the decisions of the other seats. It neutralizes the political clout that a strong Councillor may have had over the other seats during the time in which we dont have a full council.

As regards to the second; we have laws that a citizen cannot give direct aid to the enemy. This proposal simply states that a Councillor cannot be found guilt by a judiciary committee of doing such. Our proposal is based on the fact of the entire codex of laws that are already written. In my opinion there is no need to reinvent the wheel here. Our proposal acknowledges we have laws and a Councillor must follow them.

I do sense that your only motivation is frustration that Loken is still in office, and you think that we are simply stalling the vote on the bill. Rest assured on my part that is far from the truth. My concern is to make sure we have a document that can stand the test of time and is unbiased.

Since your objections dont show any major loopholes to me. I will vote yes at that this time.
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Re: Election and Removal proposal

Postby admin » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:36 pm

That is four, we only need to hear from Councilor Sybil for this painful debacle to be over.
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Re: Election and Removal proposal

Postby The Redneck » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:26 am

*Loksha shakes his head.* You just made blatantly false accusations, Fires. Nobody needed to ~turn~ what you said into an attack, and everyone saw the slanderous rant you went on not very long ago--if you are getting very tired of being called out on your attacks, perhaps you should stop making them.

I did not take offense because you disagreed with my worldview--I take offense because you accused me of things I did not do. Among the Yugashi, we try to avoid such things, but your people may be different.

As for what you ~sense~, I have several motivations beyond simple frustration--and I'm not sure just how you'd ~sense~ such things anyway, unless you've been digging into my head. Have you?
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Re: Election and Removal proposal

Postby Kender » Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:00 am

So the entire past 6 months you have not snorted, called me insane, doubted my sanity. ::shrugs:: I must have been talking to another Loksha.

Enough Loksha. Even there you turn this into an attack.

Anytime anyone even hints that you might be less than honest, you think it is an attack. Previously what you call a vile rant was supposition made heated by your scoffing, your laying of insults that you imply that I am or others are insane or crazy.

It was made heated by the fact that I believe that civil laws do not mandate morality. That the civil government should make no laws regulating religion. ::pause:: We do not need to go into that debate here.

Yes each Councillor has an agenda - whether its simply to get this over so we can go home.

Or to make sure that the laws that are passed are ones that at the end of the day we all -if not feel happy about - can live with as well as those who follow after us can live with.

Earlier i tried to make a point. I failed as It was completely derailed and turned into personal attacks on my sanity and in my frustration I turneed it back at you. For that I was at fault, I should have had more patience with you.

We all feel passionate about what we are doing and our emotions can get carried away. Emotions feed into emotions, and where one would hope for rationality and one gets overt or indirect hostility that tends to feed into each other and rebound back and forth.

Since the beginning of this debate I have felt that you have been antagonistic to anyone who makes a stance on a point that you do not support. By setting yourself in that position and responding with such direct insults - you must be insane, you are crazy; you are only delaying this as opposed to being more diplomatic and even willing to consider someone's stance without belligerence. I would have hoped that you understood the art of compromise.

As to how I can sense your ability it is nothing more than a heightening of my perception and reading of your body language. It is an aspect of a hunter as he studies his target. It is how a Lunar can truth read a person. The only thing supernatural about it is what would take a non essence user several minutes to do a Lunar can do in an instance.

With the amount of belligerence I been getting from you, I was concerned that you would want to rush this document through. So I simply asked if there was anything you felt that was a potential open ended trap that could be manipulated by any Councillor now or in the future.

Yes I know you been writing it, and since you have been working with the wording of it you are the most intimate with the document. So me asking if you felt anything was amiss is not me delaying but getting an honest opinion and read from you as not colored by your disgust of Loken.

Loksha your opinion still maters to me in regards to the law. I know it is too late to apologize and reassure you, but I am willing to do so.
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Re: Election and Removal proposal

Postby The Redneck » Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 am

*Loksha shakes his head.* so you claim that you only started hurling invective because I made implications upon your sanity.... do you really want to look back through the records and see if the timeline holds to that accusation? Do I really have to recount your litany of insults and lies as you charge others with being "antagonistic?"

While I did not directly call you insane, I certainly implied such--after you defended the worship of the Yozis. If you think the two events don't follow each other... well, I suppose I'm making another implication.

Likewise, I felt that Loken was delaying for obvious reasons--the man has been putting this off for six months, and has raised more than a dozen objections, some of them things that had already been resolved, since the solars brought their petition forth. You may refuse to believe that these are delays because he knows he'll be thrown out on his ear if you wish--but that takes more effort than I am willing to put forth on his behalf.

If you wish to make an apology--a sincere one, not backed up with further accusations--then I don't see that as council business. However, one thing I would like to address is that I find it suspect that simply reading body language can tell someone what my motivations on a particular project are. Of course, considering you got it wrong, it may well be as imperfect as you claim, yet you've told me how I feel about a matter--and on the possibility that both of y ou may be stalling together, you did hit on a truth that is somewhat difficult to express through body language.

I believe that in future sessions, we will have to discuss what sorts of magic are allowable during council sessions.
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Re: Election and Removal proposal

Postby admin » Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:43 pm

I would appreciate if you gentlemen would step outside if you need to continue spraying the area with testosterone. I'm wearing my good slippers.

As for the matter at hand..... It's officially a law. Thank the Dragons!
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